Highmaul Feedback Summary
I want to again thank everyone who has participated in the Highmaul Reflections so far. Remember, those are due Thursday (2/12) for those still interested in earning 25 bonus EP.
It’s been amazing reading all the responses to Highmaul and to the guild, and I appreciate all the kind words and honest feedback. I’ve been taking notes and highlighting captions from each of your reflections, and I’ve noticed some major themes that I thought I would compile. Some of these statements may seem extreme, silly, or right-on-the-mark depending on your perspective. However, the perspective that I hope you take away from these sentiments is that our guild is diverse and passionate. The fact that so many players took an incredible amount of time and effort to write these letters tells me that despite our differences, our community is invested in the long-term success of our guild and united with a desire to grow and overcome whatever obstacles may cross our path.
Each of the following comments represents an opinion or suggestion which was expressed by at least three (3) unique reflections. The comments have been paraphrased for anonymity, consolidation, and ease of reading; however, the sentiments are well-preserved. Please note that these are NOT indicative of any official statement or policy initiative from the guild. Many are contradictory and even humorous when read in succession.
This list demonstrates very clearly how many differences of opinion exist and how difficult it often is to please everyone. Being an officer/leader often means feeling like you’re being stretched in two opposite directions by people that you like and respect. This is why we are very careful and tend to take a month or two to polish and present changes in the State of the Guild. I know many of you would like faster results at times, and raiders have a tendency not to look far beyond the most recent raid. However, I truly believe that we are at our best when we are being proactive with our communication and policies rather than reactive to specific events.
Thank you for your support, opinions, and time.
Zug Zug,
Barotar & Crusade
Community
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Atmosphere is respectful and non-elitist.
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Leadership does not power trip.
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I love the laid-back atmosphere.
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Please, no more puns!
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House of Zug is very active, even on off nights.
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I wish there was more activity on off nights.
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We need more scheduled guild activities.
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We need more social activities for players to get to know one another outside of raiding.
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The website is active and has everything you’d ever want to know.
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This community is the best!
Leadership
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Officers aren’t online enough.
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Officers are always available through GroupMe or the forums.
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We need more officers.
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Most organized guild I’ve seen.
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Communication from leadership is impressive.
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I love the clearly outlined goals.
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State of the Guild and E-blast newsletters are fantastic.
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The leadership is extremely professional.
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Comments from leadership are positive and insightful.
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Leadership can sometimes be short or insensitive.
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Coaching and feedback are always available.
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Officers do a good job managing expectations.
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The raid leaders spend too much time helping people who aren’t improving.
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Officers need to call people out or bench them for poor performance.
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I love that you don’t remove people for poor performance.
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Raid leading is very clear and organized.
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When the raid leaders are less serious/strict/professional, the raid takes advantage and stops trying their hardest.
Raiding
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The loot system has worked out really well.
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EP for Logs Analysis is a great idea.
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Raid leaders do an excellent job calling out mechanics.
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Players are too reliant on raid calls.
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We should not attempt Mythic.
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We need to push Mythic or the top players will leave.
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I want to do Mythic, but I’m worried about hurting underperforming people’s feelings.
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It doesn’t matter if we don’t kill anything as long as we had fun.
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Some people just take longer to learn.
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It’s disrespectful to the team not to know the strategies or come ill-prepared to raids.
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Many players waste the raid’s time.
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Too many people don’t return from breaks on-time.
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Raids are the perfect balance of fun and focus.
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There is too much chatter on Vent.
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I love that you allow for many opinions.
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We need stricter dps/hps requirements.
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Many raiders get too easily frustrated after a few wipes and let their mood impact their performance.
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Players need to be okay with wiping for two or three nights at a time. That’s progression.
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We shouldn’t be attempting bosses for more than an hour or so. It’s demoralizing.
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Many raiders have unrealistic expectations of how fast we should progress.
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We are going to fly through Blackrock Foundry.
Feel free to leave your comments below, provided they are constructive and respectful.
Barotar#1118
www.houseofzug.com
Barotar@houseofzug.com
www.twitter.com/Barotar
Firstly. The podcast was super fun to listen to...The music was brilliant. Great job guys...Another example of excellent leadership.
Now the not so fun stuff. As it was said, a lot of what is the common opinion is very contradictory. It's clear that from the summary, we have two very different types of players. We have the quite clearly more hardcore raiders, and the casual, flexible ones. This is always going to cause clashes. My issue is when I look to the guild charter, it does not correlate to some of these opinions. For example:
"We need to push mythic or the top players will leave". I understand for the hardcore players, that this is a concern yes. However...Everyone knew what they were going into when signing up for HoZ. There is a lot of emphasis on it being casual, and flexible, perfect for those people who can't put as much time into the game as others.
"We need stricter dps/hps requirements.". Sure, I can go for that. But that comes with practice. Now you can turn around and say "Well, you should already know". However, it's clear from everything about the guild, that raiding is to help people out, make them just better players. Growth in playstyle, raiding, everything. Should those people be pushed out? I personally don't think so. It's an elitist attitude, and feels completely wrong compared to what the guild charter states. It's okay to push out people who may take longer to learn/don't have as much time/haven't been playing as long, but there is stress to keep the players who are already at the top of their game? Sorry...I can't agree with that. and if that is your mentality, it's incredibly childish, and selfish. It's all about community and helping each other out. Okay, loot is great, victory is wonderful, but if that's all there is to it...You have to wonder whether a guild that clearly states it's casual and flexible, is really for you.
I know my own numbers aren't anything special...But I have seen a LOT of improvement...Because of some of the very helpful people in our guild, I have had a complete overhaul of my ui, raid awareness increased massively, and countless other things also. My own progression in regards to mechanics has moved far quicker than I expected. Think of the time I took in the least damage (except for Daekano), as opposed to in the first few weeks where I was constantly getting blasted. That is because people worked WITH me, not put me to one side so they could advance on further. It's all well and good reading class write ups, boss strats, watching videos on both...But you need to see it and practice it. LFR isn't really the place to practice anything. I've tried...For imp it is impossible. But my point is, because of that help, I have focused on the mechanics and for highmaul...I have them down except for the occasional mess up that can happen to -anyone- (even you Mr/Mrs Elitist). That would not have happened had I not had a chance. If I was benched for the low numbers, well I might as well have gone elsewhere. Read over the site again...It clearly states mechanics are the focus, not meters.
I love that all of our feedback was asked for, and quite clearly read. Not many places would do that. Our opinions are there, and are being focused on. You can't fault Bar and Crucru in that regard. They put a lot of time into what they do...That much is clear.
However...I feel like putting all of this out here has been rather demoralising in itself. It's not that nice to know people are griping on, or feeling a certain way in the background, whilst you have no idea. And yes, I can put myself in this category because I know that my performance was shocking initially...I was terribad. My UI was a mess. I was doing so many things wrong... But, I got the help I needed, I was vocal about where I have been awful, I owned up to where I mucked up, and the Officers plus a couple of others, gave me time and so much advice.
So in regards to "The raid leaders spend too much time helping people who aren't improving" all I can say is..Naff off. Maybe you need to focus on yourself more as opposed to people who you think aren't improving. You might not even notice the improvements. But they happen. It is NOT your place to decide where the raid leaders put their time in OUTSIDE of raiding. And thinking you have a say on that is absolutely ridiculous. Bar and Cru give their time outside of raid time to help people, to get the team in the right place, to be the best it can be. I think they should be praised for that, not criticised. I know I am incredibly grateful (To Dae also).
And with having top players, us lowbie derps learn a lot. I know I personally try and watch Bael and Daekano's playstyle...I go through my own logs, but I also go through theirs to try and improve myself. I'm sure I'm not the only one who looks at other people of the same class/spec to help themselves.
The main point I'm trying to make it, try and be a bit kinder to your fellow zuggie, no matter who it is. I understand frustrations, but you don't know of the position that person is in. Be it illness causing reaction times to be slightly slow, or other things you just can't avoid. The raids have not been out that long, it's silly to get het up and impatient.
With that, I shall leave it there. As I said, anyone can speak to me about anything I've said. On groupme/forums/game/vent. More than happy to hear from people who are thinking in these ways and would like to see it from your side. But, this is my side, and I stand by it.
Thanks,
Kay.
(Sidenote, I'm not sure when I'm gonna be raiding again ((probably to some people's relief)) but I have RL health issues going on, and so many tests. I don't want to bring down the team, so, I'm happy that the glad role exists, unhappy that there may be so much judgement though.).
Now for a more detailed version of my point of view.
I guess I'm kind of in the middle of the road on this topic you have breached. I'm not an elitist but I do push myself to be the best possible raider I can be and I have TONS of improving to do I feel personally. In the same regard I don't consider my self casual either. I'm a very competitive person, so with raiding like in football or baseball i want to be my best and I want the team to be it's best. So I can see where some of the more hard core raiders we have are coming from. Heck a couple years ago when I was playing this game like a 2nd full time job I would definitely have be on the suck, not improving fast enough and your out band wagon. But after taking an extended break from the game, coming back to things being a lot different and not having raided for almost 2 years on a serious level. I found myself completely out of raid shape mentally and physically. When I originally went to college it was to become a teacher, I decided is isn't have the patience for that. Now 10 years later I think and appreciate the time someone takes to help teach me something and the patience that goes into it. I try to remember that when there is someone new at work and I have to teach them the job. I think this is a very positive way to look at things in the ZUG community. Not everyone is gonna just show up for work and now exactly what they are doing. Help build the team and guess what that success will come a lot faster :-) just my two cents. It's a game and let's all help each other have a blast playing it
But I hope people can see where I'm coming from, and your points also Kadre. If people have those complaints, I feel they should be more proactive. Instead of complaining to the raid leaders about the numbers, or about their time being used to help people...YOU do it. If the 'three' people who complained about this kind of thing, spoke to the people who are not improving and tried to help them out, you would be doing the whole team a world of good. Saving Bar and Crucru's time, getting the person to see what they are doing wrong, get your own frustrations out, and maybe a feel good feeling from actually helping someone. Grumbling in the background does no favours. Help us out . Do it for the team rather than just thinking of your own chances for success.
There have been some great responses to this thread already, and Crusade and I knew this would stir up some drama. That's okay! I hope that it gives you a small indication of the tight-wire balancing act that the officers perform daily to keep this ship sailing.
In the following statements, I'm going to try and articulate "the argument from elitism" since many players are worried about being identified as "elitists." I think there is a very valid argument expressed in many of these reflections that deserves to be shared. I also think you'll find it's not too unreasonable. Please note that this is NOT an attack against other opinions whatsoever. Just a different point-of-view (I'm playing Devil's advocate).
You would be surprised to know that the comments you may regard as "elitist," such as "We need to push mythic or the top players will leave," were NOT mentioned by any of our top raiders. It is actually more of a concern among the mean (average) performers that is unsubstantiated.
This is a quote from one of our finest players and is overwhelmingly the attitude I've seen from players consistently ranking above the 75th percentile (top 10% of players in the world):
"Moving forward I would definitely like to see some Mythic content however, I understand the headaches and drama that having a fixed group size can cause. Other than that, lets just keep doing what we've been doing."
Nowhere in the Guild Charter or Raiding Charter does the term "Casual" appear; however, "Focus" appears four times. House of Zug is a serious raiding guild. As mentioned in the last State of the Guild, too often players mistake "flexibility" for "casualness." HoZ offers raiders with young children, families, demanding careers, and crazy school schedules the chance to join us. The seven (7) hours which we raid are sacred to our raiders. For many of them, it's the only "me-time" they get all week, and they want to spend it with people who take the game and the sport of raiding as seriously as they do.
We say "sport of raiding" because this attitude is at the core of the House of Zug raiding mentality. And the analogy has been used time-and-time again to describe our level of dedication we expect. We are like a high school football team. We play because it's fun! After all, this is not our career; it's a game. But do not think for a second that if we don't know the plays or haven't put in the practice that our coach will keep us on the starting squad. It's not fair that some kids are natural athletes and do amazing every game with seeming no effort while some have to work their butts off just to make the team. A good coach is there with resources and guidance, but s/he cannot catch the touchdown pass for us. At the end of the day, the coach needs to put the players on the field who can.
Okay back to being Barotar...
I do not think this argument is elitist or snobby. It's a valid point of view that deserves to be represented, and I know from my conversations with players who hold this sentiment that they are afraid of offending people by expressing their opinions. They are afraid of being flagged as "elitist @$$-holes" and excluded from the community. Many of our players could be on teams with much higher server/world rankings but choose House of Zug because we offer the flexibility of a casual guild with the organization and expectations of a serious raiding guild. Try to be open-minded. The officers are working hard to be.
The real takeaway from all these reflections has been that more than anything: players just want to raid, kill bosses, and have fun!
Barotar#1118
www.houseofzug.com
Barotar@houseofzug.com
www.twitter.com/Barotar
Seriously though, I think it's good people know the broad range of opinions that exist. We're just doing our best to (a) make everyone happy; (b) accomplish the objectives we set forward; and (c) continue pushing us to new plateaus.
Barotar#1118
www.houseofzug.com
Barotar@houseofzug.com
www.twitter.com/Barotar
Kaylith you have really impressed me in this thread. However, as Kadre said, I don't think the casual/elitist dichotomy is very strong at all in HoZ. We do, however, have some growing pains when it comes to representing fun vs focus, and that's something that Barotar has been addressing very recently.
"You would be surprised to know that the comments you may regard as "elitist," such as "We need to push mythic or the top players will leave," were NOT mentioned by any of our top raiders. It is actually more of a concern among the mean (average) performers that is unsubstantiated."
Hence why I said it's rather selfish, and people just thinking of themselves and not the WHOLE team, just the ones on the top of their game who can get them somewhere.
I don't disagree with people aiming to be the best they can be. As you know Bar, I have been trying to do that...But with that, some of us need the help. I'm not one to turn it down from anyone, and you'll always get a huuuge thank you from me. Why may some need help? Some of us haven't been playing the game religiously for years and years, some of us are new to the world of add ons. And some of us have not been in top raiding guilds before and now decided to drop down. We haven't had that push before. Not everyone is on the same level, and that should be taken into consideration. Especially when people ARE trying.
I think my main issue was people saying that you and Crucru spend too much time helping people who show no improvement. That got my back up some, and it's not a team like mentality. Making a judgement so quickly based off meters is harsh, when you have no idea what the person behind that toon is actually doing to improve themselves, and the effort and time they are putting into that. I worked my butt off on getting things on par so I wasn't a complete hindrance to the group. And telling the raid leaders how to spend their time outside of raid time, is still, ridiculous.
As I said, I'd be happy for people, anyone, to tell me their own frustrations with me and then I can work on it. I did throw around the elitist word, as some of it does come across as that, in regards to the raid leaders just wasting their time etc. That is pompous no matter how you spin it.
So I do see the frustrations, and I see why they have been shoved out there. However...There are frustrations from the ones who are lagging behind also. When you are trying to pick up your game, then to hear those opinions...Yes it is demoralising. There is two sides, and I think both sides need to look at the other. I am trying to do that in regards to the frustrations as I know that I have added to them. And here it is again, come to me and tell me what is getting at you with what I'm doing, and I'll work on it as much as possible. Be constructive and helpful to those who clearly need it. I think it's the best way to get around everyone getting what they want from raiding.
On a lighter note, real world HoZ loot thread is about to go up once I've finished writing it. Just putting it out there in case I come across as wanting to /gquit. :P. Not the case at all.
Mhm, I agree Dae. And there has been some clamping down on the more derpy times on vent during raids. Which is good. I'm fine with that, and often just shut up and crack on.
In regards to the casual vs elitist, I know. I don't feel that much at all. But to know at least three people think those things is enough to hurt the old morale some. Especially due to all that text up above. But that is why I'm being constructive and saying to those people that it's cool to come forward and give someone a nudge in the right direction. If someone doesn't handle that well, it's on them...But at least those people with the concerns have tried, and the people who are actually trying have more input to work with.
Edit to add: #nodrama. Just putting the way I feel about it all out there. I'm not gonna rage or just leave the guild. I'm happy enough plodding along. The community snagged me, and that's why I'm staying regardless of what happens.
Where the Methods and Paragons put in 40+ hours a week trying to be the best, we put the same, if not heavier, expectation (comparatively) on our 7 hours worth. We don't want to just kill 1 boss and call it a day... we want to beat Heroic (not just normal) and some would like even see Mythic while it's current. That means we want the same amount of progress, but under a far tighter time schedule. Sure we're not looking to be the first, but we still need time to learn the fights, get comfortable with them and finally win.
I honestly think guilds with our schedule and expectations actually make things a little tougher, mentally, than being in a top-50 guild in some aspects.
@Mordwraith. That's an excellent argument. Being a serious raiding guild on a 2-night schedule and allowing for flexibility is a massive challenge. This is why you don't see many officers as crazy as Crusade and I to attempt it in the first place. This is why we push the forums, GroupMe, State of the Guild, and communication so heavily. To achieve our goals, we need to all be prepared and on the same page going into each week.
Barotar#1118
www.houseofzug.com
Barotar@houseofzug.com
www.twitter.com/Barotar
Well played! I know you took some of the commentary a bit personally. But I'm with Daekano; I'm really impressed at how well you articulated your opinion and started a healthy debate. Every guild is going to have differences of opinion. Last night Detritivores and Supersqueeze (GM/1st Officer of Lake Effect) laughed their butts off from that podcast because it's 100% the same story they hear every day (even in a more hard-core guild). What makes me know that HoZ has such a great community is that our members are actively contributing rather than sulking and waiting for things to change in their favor.
Can't ask for more than that.
Barotar#1118
www.houseofzug.com
Barotar@houseofzug.com
www.twitter.com/Barotar